Tricyclic Antidepressants

Solving a mystery

Question:

I once had a cat that peed outside the litter box. It turned out that one of my other cats was harrassing her when she went was in the box. She quit peeing outside the box when I moved to a larger apartment and put the litter box in an area that was more open. Also, I started spending more time at home and gave them all more attention, which might have helped too. — Becky

Response:

It’d be interesting, if that little experiment is correct – but I’d still think the other cat might be interested in the odor – "checking it out" sort of thing.   Anyway… Have you taken both cats to the vet, to have them checked for a UTI?  That may very well be the problem one of the cats is having; the reason for peeing outside the box.  It’s a very common thing.  It’s happened with one of my cats, one of my sister’s, & a friend’s cat.  Antibiotics – sometimes a couple of rounds necessary, will clear it up, if so.  The first two cats I mentioned simply had  UTIs, the 3rd one had a more complicated thing going on – but it was still medical & an antibiotic cleared it up. Until they get to the vet, just in case it isn’t medical – do you have at least 2 litter boxes, in case one cat’s fussy about having his own, & are they kept clean?  Are they in a spot that’s accessible, but not high traffic, etc?  Have you tried a different type of litter in one of the boxes, in case one cat doesn’t like the present brand/type?   Are the boxes big enough, esp. if one of the cats is a big kitty? If you want to adopt them out, it’s not fair, in all honesty, to expect someone else to take on a peeing problem cat; for all you know that person won’t be at all tolerant of the behavior & would possibly have the cat euthanized, or give it up to a shelter.  If you do adopt them out, please make sure the person *knows* of the problem ahead of time, otherwise I can see possible disaster for the cat who’s peeing outside his litterbox. But, back to the beginning – it’s very possible, even probable –  that a trip to the vet’s (really necessary) & an appropriate antibiotic, &/or change of litter boxes will solve the whole problem. Cathy — "Staccato signals of constant information…" ("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve posted this problem before without any help, so I’m posting it again > with hopes of getting an answer. > My family and I have two cats.  Both around five years old, both fixed > males.  A year or two ago, one started urinating on the carpet and other > small places around the house.  We are on the verge of getting rid of > both…not ‘putting down’…if we can’t figure out which one it is. > Tonight, I found a fresh puddle and put some on a small piece of paper > towel.  I took the towel on one cat (the white one) and it backed away and > didn’t want anything to do with it.  I then took it to the other cat (the > gray one) and it sniffed it for a few seconds and didn’t mind it much. > Is one of them telling me who’s urine it is? > Out of the two cats, one will be OK with being adopted by another family. > He’s well adjusted and very friendly to everyone.  The other cat (my buddy) > is not so much that of the other cat.  He’s quite skitish and nervous.  We > hope to find out if we get rid of one cat, the other one will still be OK > and be better off. > I hope someone can help. > Kris Kauker

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I’ve posted this problem before without any help, so I’m posting it again >with hopes of getting an answer. >My family and I have two cats.  Both around five years old, both fixed >males.  A year or two ago, one started urinating on the carpet and other >small places around the house.  We are on the verge of getting rid of >both…not ‘putting down’…if we can’t figure out which one it is. >Tonight, I found a fresh puddle and put some on a small piece of paper >towel.  I took the towel on one cat (the white one) and it backed away and >didn’t want anything to do with it.  I then took it to the other cat (the >gray one) and it sniffed it for a few seconds and didn’t mind it much. >Is one of them telling me who’s urine it is? >Out of the two cats, one will be OK with being adopted by another family. >He’s well adjusted and very friendly to everyone.  The other cat (my buddy) >is not so much that of the other cat.  He’s quite skitish and nervous.  We >hope to find out if we get rid of one cat, the other one will still be OK >and be better off. >I hope someone can help. >Kris Kauker

Please take both cats to the vet to make sure it is not a physical problem. Urinary tract infections can become quite dangerous. Instant Karma’s gonna get you, gonna knock you round the face, better get yourself together, darlin’, join the human race…..  - John Lennon

Response:

You need to actually figure out who is having the problem. I do not think the "paper towel test" is going to tell you anything definitive. They should be examine by a vet to make sure there is not an underlying physical reason for the inappropriate elimination. Has this been done? If it is behavioural, there are many things you can try. Add litter boxes. Clean the spots with an enzymatic cleaner. Are there particular spots the cat is using? Make them inaccessible. Place something over the spot. Put a box on the spot and slowly move it back to the spot where the boxes are normally kept. Keep the boxes super cleaned out. Have you changed anything in the environment when this started? I mean anything. Cats can be disturbed by change. There are lots of questions you need to ask to get at the root of this. You may need to retrain the cat who is doing this. Are you sure it *is* just the one? you really need to sit down and rack your brains about *what happened that was *different* when this behaviour started (if it is not medical).  Also, read the below article to help see how you "figure out" what is happening. (from the Journal of American Veterinary Medical Association at www.avma.org archives): Detective work can pay off in kitty litter capers Your clients look to you not only for medical care for their pets but also to help solve behavioral problems that can unravel the very fiber of family life. Cases involving cats that deviate from litter box use can be baffling, but perseverance and detective work can often crack the case and restore harmony in the household. On the animal behavior program at the AVMA Annual Convention, Novartis Animal Health co-sponsored a session outlining advances in understanding feline elimination behavior problems. Equating feline elimination problems to a mystery novel, speakers laid out cases they had helped their clients solve and manage. First they gathered the clues to sleuth out the likely cause(s) (differential diagnosis) and then devised a suitable treatment plan. The first case involved a two-cat household with one litter box that was cleaned daily. The veterinarian asked the client questions about the environment and household, including the number of litter boxes, whether covered, type of litter, locations, and how often they are cleaned. Also, what is the personality/age/gender of each cat, when did it join the household, does it ever go outdoors, is it eating well, how does it interact with other pets and family members? What is the family’s profile? What are their ages, do they work, how much do they travel? Does any activity seem to coincide with instances of the unwanted behavior? If the owners have tried solutions on their own, what was the result? In the first case, according to speaker Dr. Gary Landsberg, the veterinarian’s "default diagnosis" was urine marking triggered by the presence of outdoor cats. The treatment plan was a combination of a medical evaluation that included diagnostic testing (CBC, urinalysis, serum biochemical testing, endocrine testing) as well as behavior modification (supervising, inhibiting, deterring, and counterconditioning to the outdoor cats), and environmental alterations (removing or avoiding outdoor stimulation, booby-trapping with foil a plant the cat had been urinating on). Results of the medical evaluation revealed hyperthyroidism, and the cat’s thyroid was removed surgically. By four weeks later the urine marking had stopped. The owners were displeased with the initial "misdiagnosis," and now the practice waits for histories and veterinary reports before making a diagnosis. Six months later, the problem recurred, reopening the question of whether hyperthyroidism was really the cause, or just made the cat more sensitive to the outdoor stimuli of the neighborhood cats. Behavioral therapy consisting of supervision and booby traps stopped the objectionable behavior. In the case of "Mewmew the mystery cat," presented by Dr. Debra Horwitz, the owners endured two years of sporadic urination outside the litter box, ostensibly triggered when they went on vacation. The owners had noticed that Mewmew usually resorted to carpeting and rugs. They had tried unsuccessfully on their own to solve the problem by pulling up rugs and carpeting, administering amitriptyline elixir, adding another litter box, confining the cat with the box, and eliminating metabolic causes by having their veterinarian do a medical workup (the cat was found to be healthy). It is worthwhile to consider modifying the approaches attempted unsuccessfully by the owner, according to Dr. Horwitz. Choosing from the possible diagnostic categories of litter aversion, location aversion, location preference, or substrate preference, the veterinarian narrowed Mewmew’s problem to substrate preference. The cat almost always defecated in the litter box but always urinated on carpet, rug, or linoleum. The veterinarian and client speculated that an uncleaned litter box during their vacation may have initiated the behavior, and the cat kept it up because of her substrate preference. The veterinarian and client developed "litter trials" with a covered box, and an uncovered box with a rug inside. The owners cleaned the boxes daily and changed the rug every other day, cleaning the rugs with an enzymatic product. They kept records. The tactic of using the rug in the box met with success. Six months later the owners reported they were pleased with the outcome. It is possible to try to retrain a cat from the rug to litter, but most owners do not want to risk regression. The "case of the feuding females" involved urine spraying, inappropriate elimination, and some swatting in a five-cat household. Speaker, Dr. Lynne Seibert said it was important to focus on the "usual suspects" instead of "innocent bystanders." She worked with her clients to profile each cat’s personality and interaction with the others, and because of some interspecies aggression, to observe their body language. Owners had first observed the elimination problem two years earlier at the time the household moved. The owners’ previous attempts to change the behavior by administering drugs and covering windows and kitchen surfaces (the main targets) had not worked. The diagnosis in one cat was territorial aggression toward one other cat in the household and toward the neighborhood cats outside, substrate aversion, and possible resource (litter box) defense. Another cat was fearful of that cat and experienced displacement at the litter box. An enzymatic odor cleaner was used on the soiled areas, conflicts were minimized at the fearful cat’s preferred resource by providing an escape route, and intraspecies aggression was averted by separating cats and interrupting aggressive behavior. The aggressive cat was also rewarded when she did act friendly toward the fearful cat. To remove odors on the cats, a bath towel was rubbed over them each day. By three months postreatment, the elimination problems had been eliminated. The fearful cat was still skittish around the aggressor, but the latter had stopped stalking him. Replying to an audience question, Dr. Seibert said a scarecrow or water sprinkler with motion detector can be helpful in keeping the negative stimulus of roaming, neighborhood cats out of one’s yard. Several people said they had no success with ultrasonic methods.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I’ve posted this problem before without any help, so I’m posting it again > with hopes of getting an answer. > My family and I have two cats.  Both around five years old, both fixed > males.  A year or two ago, one started urinating on the carpet and other > small places around the house.  We are on the verge of getting rid of > both…not ‘putting down’…if we can’t figure out which one it is. > Tonight, I found a fresh puddle and put some on a small piece of paper > towel.  I took the towel on one cat (the white one) and it backed away and > didn’t want anything to do with it.  I then took it to the other cat (the > gray one) and it sniffed it for a few seconds and didn’t mind it much. > Is one of them telling me who’s urine it is? > Out of the two cats, one will be OK with being adopted by another family. > He’s well adjusted and very friendly to everyone.  The other cat (my buddy) > is not so much that of the other cat.  He’s quite skitish and nervous.  We > hope to find out if we get rid of one cat, the other one will still be OK > and be better off. > I hope someone can help. > Kris Kauker

Take them to the vet to make sure there aren’t any health problems. Then check out the litter box situation from a cat’s point of view… how many are there?  Are they well located?  Change the brand of litter recently or any of that jazz? Some recommended sites I see here for these sort of problems are: http://www.peteducation.com/behavior/inappropriate_elimination.htm http://www.feline-behavior.com/html/wizzin_.html http://www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/inappro-elim2.html http://www.homestead.com/Felinecompanions/InapUrin.html — Plaz

Response:

good morning.  I apologise for repeating any questions you have already been asked, but I am new to the group. when the problem started had there been any new events in the house, eg changing of furniture etc, change of carpet even (I am told that this is a common cause), a change of litter in the cat tray?  are the puddles near/next to a tray – could the tray have been moved so that the cat feels threatened when using it? we found that our cats (indoor ones) are particularly about litter and this has caused problems in the past.  also I had a potential problem when we took in a kitten and it upset one of my tonkinese, but thankfully he has got over this but still occasionally looks as though he is going to pee. regards kathy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve posted this problem before without any help, so I’m posting it again > with hopes of getting an answer. > My family and I have two cats.  Both around five years old, both fixed > males.  A year or two ago, one started urinating on the carpet and other > small places around the house.  We are on the verge of getting rid of > both…not ‘putting down’…if we can’t figure out which one it is. > Tonight, I found a fresh puddle and put some on a small piece of paper > towel.  I took the towel on one cat (the white one) and it backed away and > didn’t want anything to do with it.  I then took it to the other cat (the > gray one) and it sniffed it for a few seconds and didn’t mind it much. > Is one of them telling me who’s urine it is? > Out of the two cats, one will be OK with being adopted by another family. > He’s well adjusted and very friendly to everyone.  The other cat (my buddy) > is not so much that of the other cat.  He’s quite skitish and nervous.  We > hope to find out if we get rid of one cat, the other one will still be OK > and be better off. > I hope someone can help. > Kris Kauker

Response:

> I’ve posted this problem before without any help, so I’m posting it again > with hopes of getting an answer. > My family and I have two cats.  Both around five years old, both fixed > males.  A year or two ago, one started urinating on the carpet and other > small places around the house.  We are on the verge of getting rid of > both…not ‘putting down’…if we can’t figure out which one it is.

The first order of business is get them both examined to rule out medical problems (e.g., thyroid disorders, diabetes, urinary tract disorders). While you’re at the vet, ask him for fluorescein dye strips and administer 6 fluorescein test strips in a gel capsule PO to one cat.  Urine outside the litter box fluoresces under a Wood’s light for about 24 hours.  If the inappropriate urine fluoresces, the culprit is the cat who you dosed; it doesn’t, the culprit is the other cat. You don’t have to "get rid" of either cat. If medical causes are ruled out, the problem may be: Not enough litter boxes – 2 cats should have 3 boxes; A dirty litter box.  Different cats have different levels of tolerance to an unclean litter box; Box located in noisy or high-traffic area or unpleasant surrounding (e.g., a relatively inaccessible basement and noisy laundry room). Wrong type of box.  A covered litter box  maintains odors at an offensive level or may be too small for large cats to move around comfortably. Wrong litter type. The first step is have your cats examined. Phil. — "Cat people are different, to the extent that they                  generally are not conformists.  How could the be, with a cat running their lives?"                                                          –Louis Camuti     Feline Healthcare: http://maxshouse.com

Response:

I’ve posted this problem before without any help, so I’m posting it again with hopes of getting an answer. My family and I have two cats.  Both around five years old, both fixed males.  A year or two ago, one started urinating on the carpet and other small places around the house.  We are on the verge of getting rid of both…not ‘putting down’…if we can’t figure out which one it is. Tonight, I found a fresh puddle and put some on a small piece of paper towel.  I took the towel on one cat (the white one) and it backed away and didn’t want anything to do with it.  I then took it to the other cat (the gray one) and it sniffed it for a few seconds and didn’t mind it much. Is one of them telling me who’s urine it is? Out of the two cats, one will be OK with being adopted by another family. He’s well adjusted and very friendly to everyone.  The other cat (my buddy) is not so much that of the other cat.  He’s quite skitish and nervous.  We hope to find out if we get rid of one cat, the other one will still be OK and be better off. I hope someone can help. Kris Kauker

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I’ve posted this problem before without any help, so I’m posting it again >with hopes of getting an answer. >My family and I have two cats.  Both around five years old, both fixed >males.  A year or two ago, one started urinating on the carpet and other >small places around the house.  We are on the verge of getting rid of >both…not ‘putting down’…if we can’t figure out which one it is. >Tonight, I found a fresh puddle and put some on a small piece of paper >towel.  I took the towel on one cat (the white one) and it backed away and >didn’t want anything to do with it.  I then took it to the other cat (the >gray one) and it sniffed it for a few seconds and didn’t mind it much. >Is one of them telling me who’s urine it is? >Out of the two cats, one will be OK with being adopted by another family. >He’s well adjusted and very friendly to everyone.  The other cat (my buddy) >is not so much that of the other cat.  He’s quite skitish and nervous.  We >hope to find out if we get rid of one cat, the other one will still be OK >and be better off. >I hope someone can help. >Kris Kauker

I couldn’t guess which one is the guilty party, but… have you had them vet-checked? This dilemma comes up on the newsgroups quite often and apparently the cat’s problem could very well be a urinary tract problem. They tend to associate the pain from urination with the litterbox itself, and start avoiding it. Another issue is, I’m assuming this cat is an indoor or indoor/outdoor cat. How do you propose to get rid of him? You can’t adopt him to another family and expect them to tolerate litterbox issues, (if you can’t) and it really isn’t fair to throw him outdoors when he’s used to being in. The sensible thing, it seems to be, is find out the cause of the problem. It could very well be medical, easily fixed, and you wouldn’t have to worry about which cat to "get rid of." Hope you find a solution. Sherry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I once had a cat that peed outside the litter box. It turned out that one of my other cats was harrassing her when she went was in the box. She quit peeing outside the box when I moved to a larger apartment and put the litter box in an area that was more open. Also, I started spending more time at home and gave them all more attention, which might have helped too. — Becky

Response:

It’d be interesting, if that little experiment is correct – but I’d still think the other cat might be interested in the odor – "checking it out" sort of thing.   Anyway… Have you taken both cats to the vet, to have them checked for a UTI?  That may very well be the problem one of the cats is having; the reason for peeing outside the box.  It’s a very common thing.  It’s happened with one of my cats, one of my sister’s, & a friend’s cat.  Antibiotics – sometimes a couple of rounds necessary, will clear it up, if so.  The first two cats I mentioned simply had  UTIs, the 3rd one had a more complicated thing going on – but it was still medical & an antibiotic cleared it up. Until they get to the vet, just in case it isn’t medical – do you have at least 2 litter boxes, in case one cat’s fussy about having his own, & are they kept clean?  Are they in a spot that’s accessible, but not high traffic, etc?  Have you tried a different type of litter in one of the boxes, in case one cat doesn’t like the present brand/type?   Are the boxes big enough, esp. if one of the cats is a big kitty? If you want to adopt them out, it’s not fair, in all honesty, to expect someone else to take on a peeing problem cat; for all you know that person won’t be at all tolerant of the behavior & would possibly have the cat euthanized, or give it up to a shelter.  If you do adopt them out, please make sure the person *knows* of the problem ahead of time, otherwise I can see possible disaster for the cat who’s peeing outside his litterbox. But, back to the beginning – it’s very possible, even probable –  that a trip to the vet’s (really necessary) & an appropriate antibiotic, &/or change of litter boxes will solve the whole problem. Cathy — "Staccato signals of constant information…" ("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve posted this problem before without any help, so I’m posting it again > with hopes of getting an answer. > My family and I have two cats.  Both around five years old, both fixed > males.  A year or two ago, one started urinating on the carpet and other > small places around the house.  We are on the verge of getting rid of > both…not ‘putting down’…if we can’t figure out which one it is. > Tonight, I found a fresh puddle and put some on a small piece of paper > towel.  I took the towel on one cat (the white one) and it backed away and > didn’t want anything to do with it.  I then took it to the other cat (the > gray one) and it sniffed it for a few seconds and didn’t mind it much. > Is one of them telling me who’s urine it is? > Out of the two cats, one will be OK with being adopted by another family. > He’s well adjusted and very friendly to everyone.  The other cat (my buddy) > is not so much that of the other cat.  He’s quite skitish and nervous.  We > hope to find out if we get rid of one cat, the other one will still be OK > and be better off. > I hope someone can help. > Kris Kauker

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I’ve posted this problem before without any help, so I’m posting it again >with hopes of getting an answer. >My family and I have two cats.  Both around five years old, both fixed >males.  A year or two ago, one started urinating on the carpet and other >small places around the house.  We are on the verge of getting rid of >both…not ‘putting down’…if we can’t figure out which one it is. >Tonight, I found a fresh puddle and put some on a small piece of paper >towel.  I took the towel on one cat (the white one) and it backed away and >didn’t want anything to do with it.  I then took it to the other cat (the >gray one) and it sniffed it for a few seconds and didn’t mind it much. >Is one of them telling me who’s urine it is? >Out of the two cats, one will be OK with being adopted by another family. >He’s well adjusted and very friendly to everyone.  The other cat (my buddy) >is not so much that of the other cat.  He’s quite skitish and nervous.  We >hope to find out if we get rid of one cat, the other one will still be OK >and be better off. >I hope someone can help. >Kris Kauker

Please take both cats to the vet to make sure it is not a physical problem. Urinary tract infections can become quite dangerous. Instant Karma’s gonna get you, gonna knock you round the face, better get yourself together, darlin’, join the human race…..  - John Lennon

Response:

You need to actually figure out who is having the problem. I do not think the "paper towel test" is going to tell you anything definitive. They should be examine by a vet to make sure there is not an underlying physical reason for the inappropriate elimination. Has this been done? If it is behavioural, there are many things you can try. Add litter boxes. Clean the spots with an enzymatic cleaner. Are there particular spots the cat is using? Make them inaccessible. Place something over the spot. Put a box on the spot and slowly move it back to the spot where the boxes are normally kept. Keep the boxes super cleaned out. Have you changed anything in the environment when this started? I mean anything. Cats can be disturbed by change. There are lots of questions you need to ask to get at the root of this. You may need to retrain the cat who is doing this. Are you sure it *is* just the one? you really need to sit down and rack your brains about *what happened that was *different* when this behaviour started (if it is not medical).  Also, read the below article to help see how you "figure out" what is happening. (from the Journal of American Veterinary Medical Association at www.avma.org archives): Detective work can pay off in kitty litter capers Your clients look to you not only for medical care for their pets but also to help solve behavioral problems that can unravel the very fiber of family life. Cases involving cats that deviate from litter box use can be baffling, but perseverance and detective work can often crack the case and restore harmony in the household. On the animal behavior program at the AVMA Annual Convention, Novartis Animal Health co-sponsored a session outlining advances in understanding feline elimination behavior problems. Equating feline elimination problems to a mystery novel, speakers laid out cases they had helped their clients solve and manage. First they gathered the clues to sleuth out the likely cause(s) (differential diagnosis) and then devised a suitable treatment plan. The first case involved a two-cat household with one litter box that was cleaned daily. The veterinarian asked the client questions about the environment and household, including the number of litter boxes, whether covered, type of litter, locations, and how often they are cleaned. Also, what is the personality/age/gender of each cat, when did it join the household, does it ever go outdoors, is it eating well, how does it interact with other pets and family members? What is the family’s profile? What are their ages, do they work, how much do they travel? Does any activity seem to coincide with instances of the unwanted behavior? If the owners have tried solutions on their own, what was the result? In the first case, according to speaker Dr. Gary Landsberg, the veterinarian’s "default diagnosis" was urine marking triggered by the presence of outdoor cats. The treatment plan was a combination of a medical evaluation that included diagnostic testing (CBC, urinalysis, serum biochemical testing, endocrine testing) as well as behavior modification (supervising, inhibiting, deterring, and counterconditioning to the outdoor cats), and environmental alterations (removing or avoiding outdoor stimulation, booby-trapping with foil a plant the cat had been urinating on). Results of the medical evaluation revealed hyperthyroidism, and the cat’s thyroid was removed surgically. By four weeks later the urine marking had stopped. The owners were displeased with the initial "misdiagnosis," and now the practice waits for histories and veterinary reports before making a diagnosis. Six months later, the problem recurred, reopening the question of whether hyperthyroidism was really the cause, or just made the cat more sensitive to the outdoor stimuli of the neighborhood cats. Behavioral therapy consisting of supervision and booby traps stopped the objectionable behavior. In the case of "Mewmew the mystery cat," presented by Dr. Debra Horwitz, the owners endured two years of sporadic urination outside the litter box, ostensibly triggered when they went on vacation. The owners had noticed that Mewmew usually resorted to carpeting and rugs. They had tried unsuccessfully on their own to solve the problem by pulling up rugs and carpeting, administering amitriptyline elixir, adding another litter box, confining the cat with the box, and eliminating metabolic causes by having their veterinarian do a medical workup (the cat was found to be healthy). It is worthwhile to consider modifying the approaches attempted unsuccessfully by the owner, according to Dr. Horwitz. Choosing from the possible diagnostic categories of litter aversion, location aversion, location preference, or substrate preference, the veterinarian narrowed Mewmew’s problem to substrate preference. The cat almost always defecated in the litter box but always urinated on carpet, rug, or linoleum. The veterinarian and client speculated that an uncleaned litter box during their vacation may have initiated the behavior, and the cat kept it up because of her substrate preference. The veterinarian and client developed "litter trials" with a covered box, and an uncovered box with a rug inside. The owners cleaned the boxes daily and changed the rug every other day, cleaning the rugs with an enzymatic product. They kept records. The tactic of using the rug in the box met with success. Six months later the owners reported they were pleased with the outcome. It is possible to try to retrain a cat from the rug to litter, but most owners do not want to risk regression. The "case of the feuding females" involved urine spraying, inappropriate elimination, and some swatting in a five-cat household. Speaker, Dr. Lynne Seibert said it was important to focus on the "usual suspects" instead of "innocent bystanders." She worked with her clients to profile each cat’s personality and interaction with the others, and because of some interspecies aggression, to observe their body language. Owners had first observed the elimination problem two years earlier at the time the household moved. The owners’ previous attempts to change the behavior by administering drugs and covering windows and kitchen surfaces (the main targets) had not worked. The diagnosis in one cat was territorial aggression toward one other cat in the household and toward the neighborhood cats outside, substrate aversion, and possible resource (litter box) defense. Another cat was fearful of that cat and experienced displacement at the litter box. An enzymatic odor cleaner was used on the soiled areas, conflicts were minimized at the fearful cat’s preferred resource by providing an escape route, and intraspecies aggression was averted by separating cats and interrupting aggressive behavior. The aggressive cat was also rewarded when she did act friendly toward the fearful cat. To remove odors on the cats, a bath towel was rubbed over them each day. By three months postreatment, the elimination problems had been eliminated. The fearful cat was still skittish around the aggressor, but the latter had stopped stalking him. Replying to an audience question, Dr. Seibert said a scarecrow or water sprinkler with motion detector can be helpful in keeping the negative stimulus of roaming, neighborhood cats out of one’s yard. Several people said they had no success with ultrasonic methods.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I’ve posted this problem before without any help, so I’m posting it again > with hopes of getting an answer. > My family and I have two cats.  Both around five years old, both fixed > males.  A year or two ago, one started urinating on the carpet and other > small places around the house.  We are on the verge of getting rid of > both…not ‘putting down’…if we can’t figure out which one it is. > Tonight, I found a fresh puddle and put some on a small piece of paper > towel.  I took the towel on one cat (the white one) and it backed away and > didn’t want anything to do with it.  I then took it to the other cat (the > gray one) and it sniffed it for a few seconds and didn’t mind it much. > Is one of them telling me who’s urine it is? > Out of the two cats, one will be OK with being adopted by another family. > He’s well adjusted and very friendly to everyone.  The other cat (my buddy) > is not so much that of the other cat.  He’s quite skitish and nervous.  We > hope to find out if we get rid of one cat, the other one will still be OK > and be better off. > I hope someone can help. > Kris Kauker

Take them to the vet to make sure there aren’t any health problems. Then check out the litter box situation from a cat’s point of view… how many are there?  Are they well located?  Change the brand of litter recently or any of that jazz? Some recommended sites I see here for these sort of problems are: http://www.peteducation.com/behavior/inappropriate_elimination.htm http://www.feline-behavior.com/html/wizzin_.html http://www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/inappro-elim2.html http://www.homestead.com/Felinecompanions/InapUrin.html — Plaz

Response:

good morning.  I apologise for repeating any questions you have already been asked, but I am new to the group. when the problem started had there been any new events in the house, eg changing of furniture etc, change of carpet even (I am told that this is a common cause), a change of litter in the cat tray?  are the puddles near/next to a tray – could the tray have been moved so that the cat feels threatened when using it? we found that our cats (indoor ones) are particularly about litter and this has caused problems in the past.  also I had a potential problem when we took in a kitten and it upset one of my tonkinese, but thankfully he has got over this but still occasionally looks as though he is going to pee. regards kathy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve posted this problem before without any help, so I’m posting it again > with hopes of getting an answer. > My family and I have two cats.  Both around five years old, both fixed > males.  A year or two ago, one started urinating on the carpet and other > small places around the house.  We are on the verge of getting rid of > both…not ‘putting down’…if we can’t figure out which one it is. > Tonight, I found a fresh puddle and put some on a small piece of paper > towel.  I took the towel on one cat (the white one) and it backed away and > didn’t want anything to do with it.  I then took it to the other cat (the > gray one) and it sniffed it for a few seconds and didn’t mind it much. > Is one of them telling me who’s urine it is? > Out of the two cats, one will be OK with being adopted by another family. > He’s well adjusted and very friendly to everyone.  The other cat (my buddy) > is not so much that of the other cat.  He’s quite skitish and nervous.  We > hope to find out if we get rid of one cat, the other one will still be OK > and be better off. > I hope someone can help. > Kris Kauker

Response:

> I’ve posted this problem before without any help, so I’m posting it again > with hopes of getting an answer. > My family and I have two cats.  Both around five years old, both fixed > males.  A year or two ago, one started urinating on the carpet and other > small places around the house.  We are on the verge of getting rid of > both…not ‘putting down’…if we can’t figure out which one it is.

The first order of business is get them both examined to rule out medical problems (e.g., thyroid disorders, diabetes, urinary tract disorders). While you’re at the vet, ask him for fluorescein dye strips and administer 6 fluorescein test strips in a gel capsule PO to one cat.  Urine outside the litter box fluoresces under a Wood’s light for about 24 hours.  If the inappropriate urine fluoresces, the culprit is the cat who you dosed; it doesn’t, the culprit is the other cat. You don’t have to "get rid" of either cat. If medical causes are ruled out, the problem may be: Not enough litter boxes – 2 cats should have 3 boxes; A dirty litter box.  Different cats have different levels of tolerance to an unclean litter box; Box located in noisy or high-traffic area or unpleasant surrounding (e.g., a relatively inaccessible basement and noisy laundry room). Wrong type of box.  A covered litter box  maintains odors at an offensive level or may be too small for large cats to move around comfortably. Wrong litter type. The first step is have your cats examined. Phil. — "Cat people are different, to the extent that they                  generally are not conformists.  How could the be, with a cat running their lives?"                                                          –Louis Camuti     Feline Healthcare: http://maxshouse.com

Response:

I’ve posted this problem before without any help, so I’m posting it again with hopes of getting an answer. My family and I have two cats.  Both around five years old, both fixed males.  A year or two ago, one started urinating on the carpet and other small places around the house.  We are on the verge of getting rid of both…not ‘putting down’…if we can’t figure out which one it is. Tonight, I found a fresh puddle and put some on a small piece of paper towel.  I took the towel on one cat (the white one) and it backed away and didn’t want anything to do with it.  I then took it to the other cat (the gray one) and it sniffed it for a few seconds and didn’t mind it much. Is one of them telling me who’s urine it is? Out of the two cats, one will be OK with being adopted by another family. He’s well adjusted and very friendly to everyone.  The other cat (my buddy) is not so much that of the other cat.  He’s quite skitish and nervous.  We hope to find out if we get rid of one cat, the other one will still be OK and be better off. I hope someone can help. Kris Kauker

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I’ve posted this problem before without any help, so I’m posting it again >with hopes of getting an answer. >My family and I have two cats.  Both around five years old, both fixed >males.  A year or two ago, one started urinating on the carpet and other >small places around the house.  We are on the verge of getting rid of >both…not ‘putting down’…if we can’t figure out which one it is. >Tonight, I found a fresh puddle and put some on a small piece of paper >towel.  I took the towel on one cat (the white one) and it backed away and >didn’t want anything to do with it.  I then took it to the other cat (the >gray one) and it sniffed it for a few seconds and didn’t mind it much. >Is one of them telling me who’s urine it is? >Out of the two cats, one will be OK with being adopted by another family. >He’s well adjusted and very friendly to everyone.  The other cat (my buddy) >is not so much that of the other cat.  He’s quite skitish and nervous.  We >hope to find out if we get rid of one cat, the other one will still be OK >and be better off. >I hope someone can help. >Kris Kauker

I couldn’t guess which one is the guilty party, but… have you had them vet-checked? This dilemma comes up on the newsgroups quite often and apparently the cat’s problem could very well be a urinary tract problem. They tend to associate the pain from urination with the litterbox itself, and start avoiding it. Another issue is, I’m assuming this cat is an indoor or indoor/outdoor cat. How do you propose to get rid of him? You can’t adopt him to another family and expect them to tolerate litterbox issues, (if you can’t) and it really isn’t fair to throw him outdoors when he’s used to being in. The sensible thing, it seems to be, is find out the cause of the problem. It could very well be medical, easily fixed, and you wouldn’t have to worry about which cat to "get rid of." Hope you find a solution. Sherry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I once had a cat that peed outside the litter box. It turned out that one of my other cats was harrassing her when she went was in the box. She quit peeing outside the box when I moved to a larger apartment and put the litter box in an area that was more open. Also, I started spending more time at home and gave them all more attention, which might have helped too. — Becky

Response:

It’d be interesting, if that little experiment is correct – but I’d still think the other cat might be interested in the odor – "checking it out" sort of thing.   Anyway… Have you taken both cats to the vet, to have them checked for a UTI?  That may very well be the problem one of the cats is having; the reason for peeing outside the box.  It’s a very common thing.  It’s happened with one of my cats, one of my sister’s, & a friend’s cat.  Antibiotics – sometimes a couple of rounds necessary, will clear it up, if so.  The first two cats I mentioned simply had  UTIs, the 3rd one had a more complicated thing going on – but it was still medical & an antibiotic cleared it up. Until they get to the vet, just in case it isn’t medical – do you have at least 2 litter boxes, in case one cat’s fussy about having his own, & are they kept clean?  Are they in a spot that’s accessible, but not high traffic, etc?  Have you tried a different type of litter in one of the boxes, in case one cat doesn’t like the present brand/type?   Are the boxes big enough, esp. if one of the cats is a big kitty? If you want to adopt them out, it’s not fair, in all honesty, to expect someone else to take on a peeing problem cat; for all you know that person won’t be at all tolerant of the behavior & would possibly have the cat euthanized, or give it up to a shelter.  If you do adopt them out, please make sure the person *knows* of the problem ahead of time, otherwise I can see possible disaster for the cat who’s peeing outside his litterbox. But, back to the beginning – it’s very possible, even probable –  that a trip to the vet’s (really necessary) & an appropriate antibiotic, &/or change of litter boxes will solve the whole problem. Cathy — "Staccato signals of constant information…" ("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve posted this problem before without any help, so I’m posting it again > with hopes of getting an answer. > My family and I have two cats.  Both around five years old, both fixed > males.  A year or two ago, one started urinating on the carpet and other > small places around the house.  We are on the verge of getting rid of > both…not ‘putting down’…if we can’t figure out which one it is. > Tonight, I found a fresh puddle and put some on a small piece of paper > towel.  I took the towel on one cat (the white one) and it backed away and > didn’t want anything to do with it.  I then took it to the other cat (the > gray one) and it sniffed it for a few seconds and didn’t mind it much. > Is one of them telling me who’s urine it is? > Out of the two cats, one will be OK with being adopted by another family. > He’s well adjusted and very friendly to everyone.  The other cat (my buddy) > is not so much that of the other cat.  He’s quite skitish and nervous.  We > hope to find out if we get rid of one cat, the other one will still be OK > and be better off. > I hope someone can help. > Kris Kauker

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I’ve posted this problem before without any help, so I’m posting it again >with hopes of getting an answer. >My family and I have two cats.  Both around five years old, both fixed >males.  A year or two ago, one started urinating on the carpet and other >small places around the house.  We are on the verge of getting rid of >both…not ‘putting down’…if we can’t figure out which one it is. >Tonight, I found a fresh puddle and put some on a small piece of paper >towel.  I took the towel on one cat (the white one) and it backed away and >didn’t want anything to do with it.  I then took it to the other cat (the >gray one) and it sniffed it for a few seconds and didn’t mind it much. >Is one of them telling me who’s urine it is? >Out of the two cats, one will be OK with being adopted by another family. >He’s well adjusted and very friendly to everyone.  The other cat (my buddy) >is not so much that of the other cat.  He’s quite skitish and nervous.  We >hope to find out if we get rid of one cat, the other one will still be OK >and be better off. >I hope someone can help. >Kris Kauker

Please take both cats to the vet to make sure it is not a physical problem. Urinary tract infections can become quite dangerous. Instant Karma’s gonna get you, gonna knock you round the face, better get yourself together, darlin’, join the human race…..  - John Lennon

Response:

You need to actually figure out who is having the problem. I do not think the "paper towel test" is going to tell you anything definitive. They should be examine by a vet to make sure there is not an underlying physical reason for the inappropriate elimination. Has this been done? If it is behavioural, there are many things you can try. Add litter boxes. Clean the spots with an enzymatic cleaner. Are there particular spots the cat is using? Make them inaccessible. Place something over the spot. Put a box on the spot and slowly move it back to the spot where the boxes are normally kept. Keep the boxes super cleaned out. Have you changed anything in the environment when this started? I mean anything. Cats can be disturbed by change. There are lots of questions you need to ask to get at the root of this. You may need to retrain the cat who is doing this. Are you sure it *is* just the one? you really need to sit down and rack your brains about *what happened that was *different* when this behaviour started (if it is not medical).  Also, read the below article to help see how you "figure out" what is happening. (from the Journal of American Veterinary Medical Association at www.avma.org archives): Detective work can pay off in kitty litter capers Your clients look to you not only for medical care for their pets but also to help solve behavioral problems that can unravel the very fiber of family life. Cases involving cats that deviate from litter box use can be baffling, but perseverance and detective work can often crack the case and restore harmony in the household. On the animal behavior program at the AVMA Annual Convention, Novartis Animal Health co-sponsored a session outlining advances in understanding feline elimination behavior problems. Equating feline elimination problems to a mystery novel, speakers laid out cases they had helped their clients solve and manage. First they gathered the clues to sleuth out the likely cause(s) (differential diagnosis) and then devised a suitable treatment plan. The first case involved a two-cat household with one litter box that was cleaned daily. The veterinarian asked the client questions about the environment and household, including the number of litter boxes, whether covered, type of litter, locations, and how often they are cleaned. Also, what is the personality/age/gender of each cat, when did it join the household, does it ever go outdoors, is it eating well, how does it interact with other pets and family members? What is the family’s profile? What are their ages, do they work, how much do they travel? Does any activity seem to coincide with instances of the unwanted behavior? If the owners have tried solutions on their own, what was the result? In the first case, according to speaker Dr. Gary Landsberg, the veterinarian’s "default diagnosis" was urine marking triggered by the presence of outdoor cats. The treatment plan was a combination of a medical evaluation that included diagnostic testing (CBC, urinalysis, serum biochemical testing, endocrine testing) as well as behavior modification (supervising, inhibiting, deterring, and counterconditioning to the outdoor cats), and environmental alterations (removing or avoiding outdoor stimulation, booby-trapping with foil a plant the cat had been urinating on). Results of the medical evaluation revealed hyperthyroidism, and the cat’s thyroid was removed surgically. By four weeks later the urine marking had stopped. The owners were displeased with the initial "misdiagnosis," and now the practice waits for histories and veterinary reports before making a diagnosis. Six months later, the problem recurred, reopening the question of whether hyperthyroidism was really the cause, or just made the cat more sensitive to the outdoor stimuli of the neighborhood cats. Behavioral therapy consisting of supervision and booby traps stopped the objectionable behavior. In the case of "Mewmew the mystery cat," presented by Dr. Debra Horwitz, the owners endured two years of sporadic urination outside the litter box, ostensibly triggered when they went on vacation. The owners had noticed that Mewmew usually resorted to carpeting and rugs. They had tried unsuccessfully on their own to solve the problem by pulling up rugs and carpeting, administering amitriptyline elixir, adding another litter box, confining the cat with the box, and eliminating metabolic causes by having their veterinarian do a medical workup (the cat was found to be healthy). It is worthwhile to consider modifying the approaches attempted unsuccessfully by the owner, according to Dr. Horwitz. Choosing from the possible diagnostic categories of litter aversion, location aversion, location preference, or substrate preference, the veterinarian narrowed Mewmew’s problem to substrate preference. The cat almost always defecated in the litter box but always urinated on carpet, rug, or linoleum. The veterinarian and client speculated that an uncleaned litter box during their vacation may have initiated the behavior, and the cat kept it up because of her substrate preference. The veterinarian and client developed "litter trials" with a covered box, and an uncovered box with a rug inside. The owners cleaned the boxes daily and changed the rug every other day, cleaning the rugs with an enzymatic product. They kept records. The tactic of using the rug in the box met with success. Six months later the owners reported they were pleased with the outcome. It is possible to try to retrain a cat from the rug to litter, but most owners do not want to risk regression. The "case of the feuding females" involved urine spraying, inappropriate elimination, and some swatting in a five-cat household. Speaker, Dr. Lynne Seibert said it was important to focus on the "usual suspects" instead of "innocent bystanders." She worked with her clients to profile each cat’s personality and interaction with the others, and because of some interspecies aggression, to observe their body language. Owners had first observed the elimination problem two years earlier at the time the household moved. The owners’ previous attempts to change the behavior by administering drugs and covering windows and kitchen surfaces (the main targets) had not worked. The diagnosis in one cat was territorial aggression toward one other cat in the household and toward the neighborhood cats outside, substrate aversion, and possible resource (litter box) defense. Another cat was fearful of that cat and experienced displacement at the litter box. An enzymatic odor cleaner was used on the soiled areas, conflicts were minimized at the fearful cat’s preferred resource by providing an escape route, and intraspecies aggression was averted by separating cats and interrupting aggressive behavior. The aggressive cat was also rewarded when she did act friendly toward the fearful cat. To remove odors on the cats, a bath towel was rubbed over them each day. By three months postreatment, the elimination problems had been eliminated. The fearful cat was still skittish around the aggressor, but the latter had stopped stalking him. Replying to an audience question, Dr. Seibert said a scarecrow or water sprinkler with motion detector can be helpful in keeping the negative stimulus of roaming, neighborhood cats out of one’s yard. Several people said they had no success with ultrasonic methods.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I’ve posted this problem before without any help, so I’m posting it again > with hopes of getting an answer. > My family and I have two cats.  Both around five years old, both fixed > males.  A year or two ago, one started urinating on the carpet and other > small places around the house.  We are on the verge of getting rid of > both…not ‘putting down’…if we can’t figure out which one it is. > Tonight, I found a fresh puddle and put some on a small piece of paper > towel.  I took the towel on one cat (the white one) and it backed away and > didn’t want anything to do with it.  I then took it to the other cat (the > gray one) and it sniffed it for a few seconds and didn’t mind it much. > Is one of them telling me who’s urine it is? > Out of the two cats, one will be OK with being adopted by another family. > He’s well adjusted and very friendly to everyone.  The other cat (my buddy) > is not so much that of the other cat.  He’s quite skitish and nervous.  We > hope to find out if we get rid of one cat, the other one will still be OK > and be better off. > I hope someone can help. > Kris Kauker

Take them to the vet to make sure there aren’t any health problems. Then check out the litter box situation from a cat’s point of view… how many are there?  Are they well located?  Change the brand of litter recently or any of that jazz? Some recommended sites I see here for these sort of problems are: http://www.peteducation.com/behavior/inappropriate_elimination.htm http://www.feline-behavior.com/html/wizzin_.html http://www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/inappro-elim2.html http://www.homestead.com/Felinecompanions/InapUrin.html — Plaz

Response:

good morning.  I apologise for repeating any questions you have already been asked, but I am new to the group. when the problem started had there been any new events in the house, eg changing of furniture etc, change of carpet even (I am told that this is a common cause), a change of litter in the cat tray?  are the puddles near/next to a tray – could the tray have been moved so that the cat feels threatened when using it? we found that our cats (indoor ones) are particularly about litter and this has caused problems in the past.  also I had a potential problem when we took in a kitten and it upset one of my tonkinese, but thankfully he has got over this but still occasionally looks as though he is going to pee. regards kathy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve posted this problem before without any help, so I’m posting it again > with hopes of getting an answer. > My family and I have two cats.  Both around five years old, both fixed > males.  A year or two ago, one started urinating on the carpet and other > small places around the house.  We are on the verge of getting rid of > both…not ‘putting down’…if we can’t figure out which one it is. > Tonight, I found a fresh puddle and put some on a small piece of paper > towel.  I took the towel on one cat (the white one) and it backed away and > didn’t want anything to do with it.  I then took it to the other cat (the > gray one) and it sniffed it for a few seconds and didn’t mind it much. > Is one of them telling me who’s urine it is? > Out of the two cats, one will be OK with being adopted by another family. > He’s well adjusted and very friendly to everyone.  The other cat (my buddy) > is not so much that of the other cat.  He’s quite skitish and nervous.  We > hope to find out if we get rid of one cat, the other one will still be OK > and be better off. > I hope someone can help. > Kris Kauker

Response:

> I’ve posted this problem before without any help, so I’m posting it again > with hopes of getting an answer. > My family and I have two cats.  Both around five years old, both fixed > males.  A year or two ago, one started urinating on the carpet and other > small places around the house.  We are on the verge of getting rid of > both…not ‘putting down’…if we can’t figure out which one it is.

The first order of business is get them both examined to rule out medical problems (e.g., thyroid disorders, diabetes, urinary tract disorders). While you’re at the vet, ask him for fluorescein dye strips and administer 6 fluorescein test strips in a gel capsule PO to one cat.  Urine outside the litter box fluoresces under a Wood’s light for about 24 hours.  If the inappropriate urine fluoresces, the culprit is the cat who you dosed; it doesn’t, the culprit is the other cat. You don’t have to "get rid" of either cat. If medical causes are ruled out, the problem may be: Not enough litter boxes – 2 cats should have 3 boxes; A dirty litter box.  Different cats have different levels of tolerance to an unclean litter box; Box located in noisy or high-traffic area or unpleasant surrounding (e.g., a relatively inaccessible basement and noisy laundry room). Wrong type of box.  A covered litter box  maintains odors at an offensive level or may be too small for large cats to move around comfortably. Wrong litter type. The first step is have your cats examined. Phil. — "Cat people are different, to the extent that they                  generally are not conformists.  How could the be, with a cat running their lives?"                                                          –Louis Camuti     Feline Healthcare: http://maxshouse.com

Response:

I’ve posted this problem before without any help, so I’m posting it again with hopes of getting an answer. My family and I have two cats.  Both around five years old, both fixed males.  A year or two ago, one started urinating on the carpet and other small places around the house.  We are on the verge of getting rid of both…not ‘putting down’…if we can’t figure out which one it is. Tonight, I found a fresh puddle and put some on a small piece of paper towel.  I took the towel on one cat (the white one) and it backed away and didn’t want anything to do with it.  I then took it to the other cat (the gray one) and it sniffed it for a few seconds and didn’t mind it much. Is one of them telling me who’s urine it is? Out of the two cats, one will be OK with being adopted by another family. He’s well adjusted and very friendly to everyone.  The other cat (my buddy) is not so much that of the other cat.  He’s quite skitish and nervous.  We hope to find out if we get rid of one cat, the other one will still be OK and be better off. I hope someone can help. Kris Kauker

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I’ve posted this problem before without any help, so I’m posting it again >with hopes of getting an answer. >My family and I have two cats.  Both around five years old, both fixed >males.  A year or two ago, one started urinating on the carpet and other >small places around the house.  We are on the verge of getting rid of >both…not ‘putting down’…if we can’t figure out which one it is. >Tonight, I found a fresh puddle and put some on a small piece of paper >towel.  I took the towel on one cat (the white one) and it backed away and >didn’t want anything to do with it.  I then took it to the other cat (the >gray one) and it sniffed it for a few seconds and didn’t mind it much. >Is one of them telling me who’s urine it is? >Out of the two cats, one will be OK with being adopted by another family. >He’s well adjusted and very friendly to everyone.  The other cat (my buddy) >is not so much that of the other cat.  He’s quite skitish and nervous.  We >hope to find out if we get rid of one cat, the other one will still be OK >and be better off. >I hope someone can help. >Kris Kauker

I couldn’t guess which one is the guilty party, but… have you had them vet-checked? This dilemma comes up on the newsgroups quite often and apparently the cat’s problem could very well be a urinary tract problem. They tend to associate the pain from urination with the litterbox itself, and start avoiding it. Another issue is, I’m assuming this cat is an indoor or indoor/outdoor cat. How do you propose to get rid of him? You can’t adopt him to another family and expect them to tolerate litterbox issues, (if you can’t) and it really isn’t fair to throw him outdoors when he’s used to being in. The sensible thing, it seems to be, is find out the cause of the problem. It could very well be medical, easily fixed, and you wouldn’t have to worry about which cat to "get rid of." Hope you find a solution. Sherry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Filed under: Amitriptyline